Comments on: Don’t Do 5S

By: Pete

Pete — Mon, 06 Feb 2012 13:47:41 +0000

I know this is an old thread but I find it particularly relevant to our situation. Our implementation is challenged by a lack of change management, policy deployment, and poor leadership in the “CIP” function. The implementation has three levels of management and two of them are halfway across the country! The cart is in front of the horse.
They didn’t even _consider_ 5S. And we have a significant Customer issue over conditions in our factory that need to get fixed PDQ. We can shine the place up pretty well, but the rest of them are going to take awhile. So by default we didn’t begin with 5S since it wasn’t even “on the radar”.
So now, six months down the road, with a still-dirty factory floor, we’re just beginning.
Go figure.

By: Subbarao Gunnam

Subbarao Gunnam — Sat, 15 May 2010 18:45:50 +0000

I believe, basic stability should be the starting point before we initiate any improvement. 5S will perhaps ensure visibility of the basic stability in the system, to begin a journey in lean. Just my thoughts..

By: Jamie Flinchbaugh

Jamie Flinchbaugh — Fri, 14 May 2010 01:11:44 +0000

Joseph, it doesn’t seem that you actually read the post, since I make it very clear that you should use the correct tool in the right place. I’m not sure where you think problem solving is just black belts running around with special projects. Absolutely start with the right tool, but 5S isn’t the right tool every time and every company, which is my only assertion. And since Toyota didn’t start with 5S, I’m not sure how you’re pitching it as the the way to truly follow Toyota.

By: Joseph

Joseph — Thu, 13 May 2010 21:43:09 +0000

Jamie. Can you see what you have started with the comments from Sunil. Solving problems is a noble thing to do but do not confuse people that are just starting their Lean journey.
Many graduates that pass Black Belt in 6 weeks are not comfortable coaching 5S on shop floors. They can however solve problems with the help of a good statistics package. I have no problem with this.
That does not mean that 5S and the 7 Wastes are not the best place to start to launch Lean in a factory that has no knowledge of the subject. This is indeed trying to follow Toyota. Building your future on a solid base.
I launched Lean in a hostile place. Believe me. To quote old gangster movies, “The names are changed to protect the innocent”.
Having coached 5S and 7W along with Value Added and None Value Added the operators gave enough Kaizen ideas to fund the removal of one operator from their area. It was the start of the journey. It was the right tool in the right place.
What you are describing is a process that will solve High Level Problems and save money. It is not Launching Lean. You are confusing people and undermining how to launch Lean on a shop floor.
There is a case for doing VSM early in the launch process as you may put a lot of training and funding into an area that could be remove after VSM.
You are talking about problem solving and saying “Don’t Do 5S” these two things are different. Using the correct tool in the right place would be better.

By: Sunil Pantoji

Sunil Pantoji — Sat, 08 May 2010 14:00:16 +0000

I think we should definitely start with the 1S/ 2S as start of our lean journey.
This makes us see the waste and one of the long term objective of lean is waste elimination and 1S/2S is good start point for the same.

However going further to 3S to 5S , I agree with Jamie that this should be done with purpose and if you want to inflict the discipline in the organization.

Sunil Pantoji

By: Jamie Flinchbaugh

Jamie Flinchbaugh — Thu, 06 May 2010 21:05:16 +0000

Monty Python rarely makes it into my blog, so I appreciate the neat connection. And I thank everyone for their great comments. We have the same topic being discussed as well in the Lean Learning Center Group on LinkedIn, so you can join us there or continue here.

By: Bob MacPherson

Bob MacPherson — Thu, 06 May 2010 10:56:20 +0000

As one of the people who sent a personal email about the article, I have to tell you that my blood was a bit warm when I first read this article. I kept looking for the satirical turning point where we would all sit back and have a good chuckle. It was like we were trapped in a Monty Python movie where the writer says: “and now for something completely different!” But, alas, it never came. I will admit to being a neophyte in lean since I only have about 13 years as a practitioner and have only spent a few precious hours with people like Jeff Liker. But most of that 13 years has been on one plant floor or another trying to build a consensus around the right path to bring lean to a world that sorely needs it. The single greatest struggle is to keep the focus of the people we are trying to help. 5S has always been a visible way to do that and frankly, it is hard. But just because something is hard doesn’t make it the wrong place to start. Speaking of Monty Python, here is a quote from the Holy Grail that really captures the essence of 5S (note the intentional reference to another Holy Grail)
“King of Swamp Castle: When I first came here, this was all swamp. Everyone said I was daft to build a castle on a swamp, but I built in all the same, just to show them. It sank into the swamp. So I built a second one. That sank into the swamp. So I built a third. That burned down, fell over, then sank into the swamp. But the fourth one stayed up. And that’s what you’re going to get, Lad, the strongest castle in all of England.”
Having said all that, I still recommend Jamie’s blog to all of my team. I just wish he would have gone after Takt time instead.

By: Matt Wrye

Matt Wrye — Wed, 05 May 2010 13:15:04 +0000

I really like this post. It gets you thinking and I believe in 5S but don’t necessarily believe it is the first thing to start with. I have done 5S with 3 companies in the last 8 years and each time for a different reason. When in the auto industry we did it because that was the “formula” for starting lean and we were trying to become a supplier to Toyota. We did it and did it well, but Toyota still saw our true inefficiencies. We didn’t get awarded any business from Toyota until we started to fix those inefficiencies.

A few years later, I became a believer in solving problems and not implementing tools. When I went to work for an HVAC company, our first step was to implement 5S, but in this instance it felt right because you couldn’t see the from one production line to the next and they were only 20-30 feet apart. Our problem to solve was how do we start to even see the waste……answer: 5S.

Now working for a consumer goods company and having facilities that are fairly clean and organized, I don’t see the need to do a blanket 5S approach. We have pulled the tool out when doing changeover reduction and tools weren’t close by or missing. We have pulled the tool out when we wanted to create visual flow of our material. So we are getting there by solving problems and applying it when necessary. I have even advised against a blanket approach to implement 5S just because we should. Our culture is trying to get employees engaged in solving problems and not mandating actions.

I think with the economy the way it is today, it is even more imperative that we solve problems first and use the appropriate tools to do so. If not, the company may not be around long enough to 5S implemented.

By: Mike McAteer

Mike McAteer — Wed, 05 May 2010 12:48:25 +0000

A different approach would be to build 5S into standardized work and start with standardized work. This works well as people will see the benefit of standardized work quickly, if done right and 5S being a part of the standardized work will become the norm. Doing it this way does not ask the employees to focus on more than one concept so we do not cause confusion with too many different directions. The journey to lean is long and needs to have a solid foundation and clear direction. Standardized work supports improvements in safety, people, quality, production and of course 5S.

By: Peter Stevens (TowardsLean)

Peter Stevens (TowardsLean) — Wed, 05 May 2010 10:21:23 +0000

I absolutely agree with Jamie: a lean “foundation” building block such as 5S shouldn’t be your first intervention when starting a lean journey.

What do you think about my statement: 5S is not a solution that is implemented, but a practice that naturally develops over time as we fix today’s problems in a structured way.

The great thing about lean is that it is an ‘integrated management system’. Every building block has its own purpose. However, let’s not forget that these building blocks (solutions) have been developed (over time!) to address the problems occurring at that time. Consequently, a building block as 5S may not be the ‘solution’ for a company’s current problems.

How could 5S fit in a lean transformation ? Let’s briefly apply Kotter’s 8 step leading change model*. In line with the arguments given in the blog discussion we need to start with leadership ‘involvement’: 1) establishing a sense of urgency and 2) creating a leading coalition. Then we’ll define a 3) shared vision, 4+5) communicate it broadly and empower others. Finally it’s time for real action: 6) creating short term wins. Where do we start? What about: an urgent, important, visible, fairly easy to fix problem? While solving this current problem, surely we’ll address workspace related causes and take (5S like) countermeasures. Here the value of 5S will reveals itself to all involved: making problems visible, solving them and maintaining the workspace standards agreed.

Having demonstrated impact by fixing problems, we’ll 7) consolidate improvements and produce still more change. This means we are moving on to tackling the next important problem and the next, each time implementing workplace related (5S like) countermeasures and methods for sustaining them.

Eventually we’ll have implemented a critical mass of ‘5S like’ countermeasures and practices throughout the organisation. In my belief, this is the point where 5S could be institutionalised as a best-practice solution. Kotter defines this last step as institutionalise the new approaches.

In sum: 5S is not a solution that is implemented, but a practice that naturally develops over time as we fix today’s problems in a structured way.

Peter